Episode 1: Digging into Discipleship with Hunter Beless & Courtney Doctor
As we kick off our 'Two Sisters & Friends' season, we're delighted to be joined by our friends Hunter Beless and Courtney Doctor, as we chat about their newly released Bible study on Titus, and the joys of Titus shaped discipleship across the generations.
Hunter is the founder and host of Journeywomen and the author of three children’s books: Jesus Loves You More, Read It, See It, Say It, Sing It, and Amy Carmichael: The Brown-Eyed Girl Who Learned to Pray. Her favourite places to do ministry are within the four walls of her home and in her local church.
Courtney is an author and Bible teacher and she currently serves as the Director of Women's Initiatives for The Gospel Coalition. Her greatest desire is to be able to faithfully study, apply, and teach the word of God and help others to do the same.
-
How does this conversation stir up a desire for Titus-like relationships?
What might it look like for you to pursue these friendships in your own life?
Is there someone who you could take a step towards in this way? Pray that God would bring a person to mind, and for opportunity to grow in faith and friendship with them.
-
This episode is sponsored by The Good Book Company.
A Christian publisher who is passionate about Jesus, they aim to create and select biblical, relevant and accessible resources that will encourage you and your church family to keep going, keep growing and keep sharing your faith. Check out their website for excellent resources.
-
Thefollowing is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Sarah: You're listening to the Two Sisters in a Cup of Tea podcast, the Bible study podcast for everyday life. Felicity lives in the US, whilst I, Sarah, live in the UK, and you'll usually find us chatting for 20 minutes or so over a cup of tea and an English-style biscuit or a Scottish shortbread, as we open up the Bible and drive it to our hearts. This season is all about appreciating the conversations we've had with friends that have drawn our gaze to Jesus.
Today it's our joy and privilege to kick off the season with a new conversation with our friends Hunter Beless and Courtney Doctor, both of whom have joined us on the podcast in the past. We so enjoyed talking to them both together this time and digging into questions of discipleship and what it looks like for faith and friendship to grow hand in hand with the Bible open.
Felicity: Before we get to our conversation, we also want to introduce who we're partnering with this season to help make it happen. We're thankful for The Good Book Company, who are sponsoring this season, and we're really looking forward to sharing some resources from them. Our previous season was spent dwelling on the fruit of the Spirit, and our episode on joy struck a chord with many listeners. I was delighted when Good Book sent me this Bible study guide called Joy: Happiness of the Heart. In this guide, Anne Woodcock spends seven sessions engaging with gospel joy and how that is outworked in our hearts and lives. I appreciated the range of Bible passages she helps her readers explore and the heart-level application questions in response. It's part of a really useful series of studies called The Good Book Guides, and it's a great resource for small groups. Welcome back to Hunter Beless and Courtney Doctor, friends of ours, friends of the podcast, and wonderfully friends of each other. This season, we're all about appreciating faith-filled conversation between friends, and we're excited to have exactly that today. Thank you so much for being with us, guys.
Courtney: Thanks for having us. This is friends upon friends, right? Just look across the screen. I'm like, this is exciting.
Hunter: I told Courtney that I was hoping this conversation would bring me up out of a general funk that I was in earlier today and just the sound of your accent does that for me Felicity.
Felicity: I'm just having a sudden recollection Hunter of you attempting a British accent last time you were on. Is that correct?
Hunter: Yes, you said that I sounded a bit Yorkshire.
Sarah: Well when you guys get together as friends, any tea and biscuit action? What's your choice beverage when you choose to hang out together?
Hunter: That's a good question. I always go for coffee and you know, I want to be cool I want to know what type of biscuit I love but we know from my last confession that I just am NOT that refined I'm not that classy You guys
Courtney: It's there are Oreos biscuits. I don't know. I mean, does that count? Yeah, like is that a is that a biscuit if it is? Yeah, then that would be my double stuff Oreo would be my biscuit of choice. That's how refined I am. But the first time when the first times we ever got together in person, Hunter, you brought me some locally roasted coffee beans, which is, know, my love language. So that was yes.
Hunter: Yes, Onyx. It's the number one or number two coffee house, roasting house in the world is here in Mittenville, Arkansas, you guys. So Onyx, that's my favorite. I'll have to send you guys, I'll bring you guys some. Do you drink coffee? I know you drink tea.
Felicity: I'm sorry, we're so disappointing on that, aren't we? We're pretty single-minded on the tea.
Courtney: And the tea thing is so intimidating to me. you know, Melissa Kruger is a tea person. I've got a couple people in my life that are real tea people. And I try to, like even for Christmas, I tried sending like quality tea and you can just tell she's just not impressed with it. I mean, like I just didn't do, and I mean, I Googled, I did a little research, you know, but nope, did not. It was, not.
Hunter: You should have utilized your connections Courtney next time.
Felicity: All right, so Titus is a book we both love. We've both been greatly impacted by it and it's part of the fuel really for the reason that we do this podcast. We love to encourage women in Titus two shaped things, especially getting the Bible open with one another. So we just love that you have written a Bible study together on it and literal outworking of Titus in the act of writing it. I just love that. What was the thinking and the desire behind the study? What would you love to be the outcome, I guess, as women get their heads around Titus.
Courtney: Hunter actually brought the idea of Titus to me. And I was like, yeah, no, I am not doing that. I'm not touching it with a 10-foot pole because I just think Titus 2 has been overdone in women's ministry spaces. And then she said to me, she said, well, what if instead of really hyper focusing on Titus 2, we first of all teach the whole book. so right there she had me like a verse by verse walk through the book of Titus. But then she reminded me that Paul was older than Titus. We don't know how much older, but they had this sort of father-son relationship. So we know that there was an age difference there. And Hunter and I are almost exactly 20 years apart. And so she said, what if we can really press into that idea of intergenerational partnership in ministry like Paul and Titus did? And I was sold. I was like, absolutely. I loved that idea of not just a verse-by-verse walk through the book, but also this idea that that's what was happening. That's what was happening in Titus, as Paul was discipling Titus as they partnered together in ministry. You know, he calls him his true son in the common faith, and in that, like, there's this—the true son, like, you're my family, you're my—but there's also Father-Son. There's a little bit of—just even Paul's a little bit further ahead in life than Titus is, but then the common faith, like this idea that they are are fully full participants in the gospel ministry and in the proclamation of the gospel. And so it was just such a joy to to grab, hold hands, grab, grab Hunter's hand and do this thing together. So it was it was really beautiful.
Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. And as we did, we saw that a book that we, you know, had formerly kind of considered in the context of discipleship, which that is a part and an element of the book, but really it's all about the gospel. And that was so exciting to see as we did the text breakdown, we saw, wow, in every one of these texts, like we see Christ. And then we have these really clear gospel explanations that, you know, are just have been so refreshing for me to memorize and study Titus 2, 11-14, Titus 3, 3-7. And so we really just hope that women will fall more deeply in love with Christ, that their love for the gospel will grow, and then that they will begin to come to greater convictions of the implications of the gospel on their own lives, and that they will begin to live out the gospel in the context of you know, wherever it is that the Lord has placed them. So it's been really fun to know and love Christ more as a result of having studied this potent little book. And I think women are going to have a great time doing so it's 46 verses. So you can really get your hands around it. And I love that so much.
Sarah: So good, so helpful. Let's dig into a bit more then to the riches of what you've both personally really got out of Titus yourselves and what kind of sticks with you. So obviously you wrote this a while ago, it's now coming out now, but what still really resonates with you from your kind of in-depth dive into Titus?
Courtney: Yeah, know, Hunter just alluded to it, but there are these two gospel summaries, one in chapter two and one in chapter three. And we decided early on that instead of having women memorize a verse from every passage that we studied in that session, we would instead work through one of those gospel summaries. And so we chose the one in Titus three. And in chapter three, verse four, it says, but when the kindness of God our Saviour and his love for mankind appeared and it just keeps hitting me afresh that It's his kindness that saves us, you know we know it's his kindness that leads us to repentance and we know his heart is kind, right? We sing that isn't that a Matt Redman song and that he has this love for mankind John 3:16 but the way Paul combined these thoughts there is just, and it's the way he starts his gospel explanation in chapter three, but when the kindness of God our Savior appeared, and that was in Christ, and it's the kindness of the Father that's shown in the face of Christ it just, it just ministers to my soul to be reminded that our God, Father, Son, and Spirit is kind.
Hunter: I love that so much. You know, you're talking about like the appearance of Christ and what really struck me was in chapter 2 verse 11 where it says that the grace of God has appeared and we know that that's referencing Christ so God's grace appeared in Christ and then in 14 we see let's see here. Let me get my text. Hold on. Oh, it's 13 the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ. backing up even just a little bit, we're waiting for that blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour. So, we're waiting for God's glory to appear again at Christ's return. And I love that little section because then it explains to us how we are to wait. So God, His grace appeared to us in Christ through His incarnation, when he came, lived a perfect life, died, rose again to heaven, and he will one day reappear in glory to bring those who belong to himself all the way home. And as we wait, we're to live with hope by living in a godly way. So I've been thinking a lot about that. What does it look like for me to wait with hope for the glory of God when Christ returns?
Courtney: And I love how there are so many ways that Paul defines or describes what appeared, right? Like what visibly appeared. And so even just in the passage you just read, like his grace appeared. And in the passage that I was talking about, his kindness and his love appeared. And we're waiting for this final appearing that will be his glory. But all of it's Christ. All of it. The grace, the kindness, the love, the mercy, and the glory are all Christ.
Sarah: So good that isn't it? They're kind of embody, it is those characteristics embodied isn't it? We've just coming out of a season on the fruit of the spirit and we've been just wonderfully dwelling on the riches of Christ and yeah Him embodying kindness. We did go to this passage for that and just it's so good isn't it to dwell on Him but hold Him because that's the... actually as we seek to do that that's the way the Lord then helps us to grow to be more kind and to be and displaying his goodness to the world around. Yeah, so, so good.
Felicity: Mmm, so it's so encouraging even just like thinking on those things, just little nuggets just for a moment and that is Titus in action, isn't it? So as we know the truth, then it leads to godliness. That is the power, the dynamite of it. I love that. So writing a Bible study together, that I mean, the together aspect, that must be a lot of fun, but also hard bits as well, refining, what was fun about it, what was hard, you know, what's the process in that?
Hunter: I'm sure on Courtney's end, there's been a lot of hard bits, but you know, as it is when one is dealing with someone who's 20 years younger, literally, but for me, it's just been a huge comfort to have somebody who's 20 years my senior, who's been mulling over the text, pouring over it for two decades longer than I have. I have really fond memories, Courtney, of the text breakdown, and I think it was just that we were able to be together in person. And we had a lot of fun writing the study even at a distance, but just getting to be together with our Bibles open, like on our knees, asking the Lord to help us to break this text down so that we could put it into sections so that women could study it, you know. I remember Courtney, remember when we saw how just exactly what Felicity was talking about, the gospel or the knowledge of the truth leads to godliness? And you see that even in the text breakdown. So you'll see different sections of the text where it's like the knowledge of the truth and then it's like, and it leads to godliness. And I remember we saw that in our Titus 3 breakdown, I think. Titus 3, we broke it down, what, three through, do you remember Courtney, 11, maybe?
Courtney: Didn't we do three through eight and then we did nine through the end? Yeah.
Hunter: Eight, three through eight, yes. These are good and profitable for everyone. And we're like, look, there it is. Like the knowledge of the truth leads to godliness again. And so it was just so much fun to get to do that together. And yeah, really the refining part has just been getting to learn from Courtney and that hasn't been uncomfortable. It's just been such a joy.
Courtney: Well, for those of you that know Hunter, I might be 20 years in age, older than her, but spiritually, not at all. I mean, your knowledge of the Word and your love of the Word and your love of God, it just constantly ministers to my soul. And I do just think it was just more fun to do it together, but also that intergenerational perspective on the text. I think makes the study richer and it makes my life richer to have worked through a text with a partner in ministry and an intergenerational partner in ministry. So was so much like Paul and Titus, right? My true son in our common faith. And there were just so many times that we would come to an application point and Hunter and I would wrestle through it. But seeing it from each other's vantage point just helped us, like mine the depths more than we would have if we had done this alone. So yes, it was more fun because I think life is more fun when we do it in partnership with people, but the word, you see riches in the word that you don't see if you're doing it by yourself or even with a peer.
Sarah: So good and that's yeah, I mean that's the heartbeat of what we're doing on this podcast is seeking to encourage people to do that very thing because of the riches as you see someone else perspective on it, isn't it? And you see you get to hear their insights and how the Lord is speaking to them through his powerful word. Tell us about how your friendship has grown because I think one of our kind of deep convictions on this podcast is actually that as friends meet through the word together, around the word together, both friendship and faith do grow hand in hand as you do that thing together. Tell us what your experience has been of that as you've kind of, yeah, been on this endeavour together.
Hunter: Yeah, you know, I think that our friendship with Christ has deepened as you were referencing Sarah, like we are coming to know more of who he is through his word. And so as our friendship with him grows, then I think naturally our friendship with one another grows as well. Our conviction, just revolving around, for example, one of the themes of the book of Titus is like sound doctrine or sound teaching. Our conviction for these things is growing. So we have like this deepening shared conviction that's biblically informed. So it just gives us a lot of opportunity for conversation, thinking through how the texts that we're growing to love more and more and the person behind every one of those words, like more and more, informs the way in which we go about life and having organic conversations about that and how it's relating to the respective challenges that we're facing. Of course, like our friendship has grown as a result of that. And we would hope that as women come to the study that they will experience the same.
Courtney: Yeah, and I've reflected often kind of on that exact thing, Hunter, with like the deepening of a friendship. So when you do a project together, you have more time for your life to overlap and more and more aspects of your life come into play. Hunter and I already had a pretty robust friendship, but you just can't help have more areas of life come to play in the friendship when you do something together. You know, the strength of any friendship is tied to the thing that binds you together. So I've had friends through the seasons that we were friends because we played tennis together on Tuesday mornings, or I've had friends through seasons that it was because our kids were the same age or at the same school or, you know, whatever it is. But that thing that unites you is going to determine the strength of the bond. And so when it's your fate, that is already going to be the strongest bond that you can share. We've all probably felt that. And if you're listening, you might have felt that where you have had this immediate connection with another believer that is just different than if you didn't have Christ, because you've both been united to Christ. But then when you add to that two things, you add an intergenerational component to a friendship, there is a vulnerability that's required in that. I would. I mean, it would be so much more comfortable for me probably to stay at a little bit of a distance and let somebody think that I'm further ahead in my faith than I am or that I've got it more together than I do. But when you invite somebody in, deeply into your life, there's a vulnerability that has to occur. And I know it's occurred for both of us, but that, because our vulnerability rests in our identity in Christ and the answer to the vulnerability rests in the truth of the gospel, then that just provides this framework for safety and for depth of being known and depth of trusting what the other person's going to do and say as they remind you of the truth of the gospel. And then you add the component that we were partnering together in ministry for kingdom good. And so what we were doing together, what we were linking arms to do was for the sake of the gospel and out of our love of Christ and gratitude for what he's done for us and love of his word and knowledge that it is what will be life to other people. And so those things, I mean, just provide the framework for a depth of and a beauty to a friendship that I just think is like no other. And so I commend intergenerational ministry partners where you do life together centered on the gospel.
Felicity: Love that. That is so, and I think, you know, I don't have quite the depth of a friendship like this that you're describing, but even just touching the tips of that with my sisters in Christ, and I think that's just so very true. And I'm sure that many who are listening will be hearing this and thinking, yes, I would love that. Like, how does that work? Have you any advice as we seek to pursue Titus 2 shaped friendships with one another? What you've just described. We're not all going to be writing a Bible study together, but that kind of intergenerational, just unity in Christ.
Courtney: And I don't think that, yes, and I'm so glad you said that because I don't think these types of friendships need to reside in just one person. I think they need to characterize all of your friendships or the majority of your friendships with your sisters in Christ. So this is something we're moving towards in all of life. I think one mistake women can make is to put the hope of that type of friendship in one or two people. And that is not healthy. It is not good for anybody. It becomes exclusive and that's not so so you rejoice in in the friends of your friends and you want these types of relationships to characterize your life and so you move towards Your sisters in Christ those in your local church and you do it in a way that you're trying to create and cultivate gospel centered conversations gospel centered friendships and then because we're all meant to be living on mission, this idea of partnering in ministry should not be hard. It can look a thousand different ways. It certainly does not need to look like writing a Bible study, right Hunter?
Hunter: Well, for sure. you know, Courtney, you really do model this so well, you guys. It's really amazing how, when I think about how Courtney could have written this study by herself, it would have been a lot easier. She would have been inconvenienced a lot less. She, you know, there's so many things that she has sacrificed for my sake. And I just am so grateful for older women in our churches who are willing to sacrifice for the good of others, specifically the younger women. so, you know, Courtney, you have not just done this with me, actually, even specifically writing a Bible study, like in a formal capacity, you have done this before. And I think Sarah and Felicity, you guys are doing this and you're modeling this for all of the women who are listening to Two Sisters and a Cup of Tea. And so you can do this in any, any capacity. I feel like I get to do this through bi-weekly women's Bible study at my wonderful little local church here, Ozark Baptist Church. And I think the beauty is when women gather together around the Word to talk about what is good, as Titus 2:3 instructs us to do. You know, older women are to teach what is good. Well, how do we know what is good? Like, God alone is good, and we get to know our good God by coming together around His Word. And we see all of that exhortation underneath, you know, Paul's instruction to proclaim things that are consistent with sound teaching. And so the word is to be central in these friendships. And so I think Courtney's really challenged me to even take that beyond like writing a formal Bible study and, and, and, know, being involved in bi-weekly Bible study, but to really be extending the invitation to have these rich conversations around God's word wherever I can, however I can, whenever I can, just as you guys have encouraged the listeners to do all this time over a playdate, opening up the word and taking that step of awkwardness just to say like, hey, would you want to discuss this as the children play or whatever it is? And we will grow just in our depth and knowledge of the riches of God's grace to us. And then we'll begin to experience that to greater depths in our relationships as well. It's such a beautiful thing to experience.
Sarah: So helpful. I think what you're saying there as well, there's a level of vulnerability that comes with asking someone to do that, doesn't there? And I think of so many women who think, I'm just not, I just don't have anything to offer, or I just don't think I would be capable enough to do this kind of thing. But actually, the power is in the word, isn't it? The power is getting the word open together and getting alongside one another and exploring those riches together, trusting that he is at work in that. And it's, yeah, it's praying for that confidence, isn't it though? Because I think a lot of women just feel like, I couldn't do this or I haven't done it, so I'm not confident enough. What would you say to someone who's particularly just lacking confidence? They have a desire to do this, but they just feel like, oh, it's going to be putting themselves out there too much or what if they get rejected or the vulnerability thing is a big thing, isn't it?
Hunter: Hmm, that's really good. I'm interested to hear your answer to that question Courtney.
Courtney: Well, I would say, you know, if it truly is kind of that insecurity and lack of confidence, then then go back and believe the gospel is true, that that you are safe in Christ and that this is actually a command that we're given. This isn't an optional part of the Christian life to disciple and to be discipled. This is this has always been I mean, Hunter’s heard me talk about this ad nauseum probably, but this has always been the plan. I mean, this was you can go all the way back to Genesis 1, 27, and 28, where Adam and Eve are told to fill the earth, to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. And they're given dominion to do it. And what were they to do? They were to fill the earth with people who know, love, worship, and serve God and obey God. They didn't do it. But what is the Great Commission in Matthew 28? But a restating of that, all authority, dominion has been given to me to go, therefore, fill the earth, go into all nations, making disciples making people who know, love, obey, and worship God and so that is the task that we're given. That is what we are commanded to do, so whether it's because I think it's not only lack of confidence, I think it's also selfishness. This does require a certain amount of just like saying, okay, my time doesn't belong exclusively to me and and I need to let people in and I need to take risk and be vulnerable. And so all of those things are part of our own following of Jesus. I mean that's what He has told us to do, so I think we have to, you know, gird up our loins. Not that I really want to, but like we have to go do this thing and we have to, whatever the obstacle is, whether it's selfishness or lack of confidence, the gospel is the answer to that obstacle. And if we are following Christ, then this is something we're supposed to be doing. So there are ways, there are practical ways of saying, you know, I need to grab a good resource. I think that there are good resources out there that we can use. I need to just trust that the Word of God is living and active and sufficient, and I can open a book of the Bible and I can read it with somebody. I can grab a good Bible study. I mean, there are resources to help shore up our differences and those are fantastic. But at the end of the day, I think that we're living in disobedience if we're not actually moving towards people. And I would say to remember, you know, what do I say Hunter all the time? We are all what? Both the...
Hunter: We're both being discipled and discipling. We're both teaching and we're both learning. And we're both the older and the younger at the same time. So we're always meant to be doing all of those things.
Courtney: Yes, both at the same time.
Felicity: And I think that's so helpful just seeing that kind of bigger picture and this, the kind of the gospel being the drive for that. And that is not just for the person who is initiating and the kind of like, I'm gonna get up the guts and ask the person. But also if we're someone who's thinking, I'd love for someone to ask us, actually there's a boldness in just inviting someone to do that with us. I think sometimes it can feel like, you just need to go out and you need to be the person who asks, but actually it's the other way around as well. There's a vulnerability in saying to an older woman, do you know, I just would love you to walk with me for a bit. And that can feel a bit awkward, but actually there's just beauty in that. And as you say, both and all the time, the Lord is working through both of those things. And so, so good. What gems of wisdom. We could keep this conversation going for many, many hours, I'm sure, between the four of us, but we're really praying that others would benefit from listening in on this conversation. And throughout this season, we're praying that there'd be just huge encouragement to walk with friends in the word, around the word. I wonder, Hunter, would you mind praying for us in light of Titus, our conversation, for our listeners going forwards? Please, that would be great.
Hunter: Yes, absolutely. Father, we come to you and we thank you for your son Jesus. Lord, we thank you that your kindness appeared in Christ. We thank you that your grace appeared to us in Christ. We thank you, Lord, that you will come again and that your glory will be evident when he returns. Father, we pray that the women who are listening would grow in their love for Christ, that they would grow to understand and treasure the good news of the gospel and that that would drive them to just greater conviction to have these types of conversations, Lord, to insist on the good news of the gospel in their life as they go throughout the day, silencing false teachers and clinging to its truths. And also, Lord, that they would insist on the good news of the gospel as they're having conversations in the world around them, that they would seek to live by its truths, Lord, not by living in malice and envy, but by extending the very grace that you have shown us in your Son. We thank you so much for him and we pray these things in his sweet name. Amen.
Sarah: Courtney, Hunter, thank you so much for giving us your time, your wisdom, your friendship. We are so grateful for you both. What a joy to have you on today. And we look forward to connecting. Do pick up a copy of their study on Titus. We'll link to that in the show notes. And we look forward to seeing everyone next time for our next episode.
Courtney: Thanks for having us.
Felicity: Thank you, bye bye.
Hunter: Bye.
Felicity: We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Courtney and Hunter. It's certainly given us much food for thought. Do head to our website, twosistersandacupoftea.com, where you'll find links to all our guests' resources from this season, alongside discussion questions to help you carry on these conversations with friends. We look forward to seeing you next Friday as we carry on with our Two Sisters and Friends season.
This season has been sponsored by The Good Book Company.
We’d love to connect with you!
Find links to our social media below. Or sign up to our mail list to stay in the loop.
