Episode 6: Letting Eternity Shape you with Karen Soole

In her wonderfully down-to-earth manner, Karen brought such insight and light into our study on Ecclesiastes. With light-bulb and penny dropping moments for both of us, we continue to come back to her wisdom on Ecclesiastes, and remain so thankful for her friendship to us on the podcast!

Karen serves as the Women's Worker at Trinity Church Lancaster in the north of England. She is a Bible teacher, conference speaker and author of Liberated and Unleash the Word.

 
    1. Given this conversation, and your own understanding of Ecclesiastes, why is it a helpful book for us to engage with, even though it can be tricky?

    2. How did this conversation stir up your love for, and appreciation of, Jesus? 

    3.  Even just with this short conversation in mind, what might it look like to live wisely in the different areas of our life in light of Ecclesiastes?

  • This episode is sponsored by The Good Book Company.

    A Christian publisher who is passionate about Jesus, they aim to create and select biblical, relevant and accessible resources that will encourage you and your church family to keep going, keep growing and keep sharing your faith. Check out their website for excellent resources.

  • The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

    Felicity: You're listening to the Two Sisters and a Cup of Tea podcast, the Bible Study podcast for everyday life. Sarah lives in the UK, whilst I, Felicity, live in the US. And you'll usually find us chatting for 20 minutes or so over a cup of tea and an English-style biscuit as we open up the Bible and drive it to our hearts. This season is all about appreciating afresh the wisdom of friends as we dig into the Bible across the seasons together. And today, it's all about eternity as we talk with Karen Soolel on seeing Jesus in the book of Ecclesiastes.

    Sarah: Before we get to our conversation, we want to share another resource from The Good Book Company, whose sponsorship we're so grateful for this season. The Art of Disagreeing by Gavin Ortlund is a small book full to bursting with pastoral wisdom and practical application, as he considers what it looks like in our polarised age to disagree with kindness, courage and above all with a Christ-shaped love, whether tackling big disagreements or the simmering everyday niggles, this book is a wonderfully helpful and short read and well worth getting a hold of. Well, Felicity, Ecclesiastes has been one of the most formative books for us, I think you'd agree, kind of across the seasons. And Karen just really helped us in a way that I wish we'd got her on at the beginning of the season.

    Felicity: I just need to remember us having a conversation where we got to about, I don't know, we were probably about halfway through the book and we're like, do we really understand what's going on here? Should we keep pressing record? And then we had, yeah. Yeah, and then we got Karen on and suddenly things became just a lot clearer.

    Sarah: Yeah. That was a big question, wasn't it? Should we keep going with this? Yeah. Yep. Yep. Which was just great, wasn't it? And just brilliant. She does. She has such a gift, doesn't she, for clearly communicating hard stuff and really taking our eyes to Jesus in the process. And again, the conversation sits with us. It was such a beautiful conversation to have with her. And we're really looking forward to you guys enjoying it now.

    Felicity: Absolutely, let's get into it.

    Sarah: Today it's our total joy to welcome Karen  Soole onto the podcast. Our first returning guest. Karen, welcome 

    Karen: It's great to be with you. Thank you for bringing me back.

    Sarah: Now, last time Karen, we had a conversation together, we were unpacking the joys  of John's gospel and the ginger nut biscuit was your staple. Go to biscuit. Just wondering,  are there any others that kind of make the height of the ginger nut or you're sticking with  the ginger nut as your go to? 

    Karen: Yeah, I have to confess, I haven't eaten many ginger nut biscuits recently. My  husband started going on about all this ultra processed food and that's, having a bit of a  downer on buying all these shop bought biscuits, but the consequence means that we've  been baking even worse, isn't it? So we've been eating a lot of coffee cake lately, which i really nice, but it's been all proper ingredients. It's not biscuit though, is it? So sorry. 

    Felicity: A sweet treat to go with your hot cup. I think we'll take it. That's okay. Yeah, this  conversation came about really so inviting you on was because you and I sat down for  genuinely sat down for a cup of tea in the Lake District over the summer, and I didn't really  know that Karen had been teaching through Ecclesiastes. And we're sitting down for our  cuppa and we start talking and I realize Karen has just taught through Ecclesiastes and we  were just about to start recording ecclesiastes, thinking about ecclesiastes, and I thought,  this is it, this is the genuine cup of tea with your Bible conversation. And I just asked Karen  all the questions and got so much wisdom and insight into this book that I thought we need  to have that conversation while the record button is pressed. So thank you so much for  coming and joining us, Karen. We're excited for diving into ecclesiastes. But before we do  that, for those who weren't listening to your last appearance on the podcast, can you tell us  a bit? Where are you, how do you spend your time? Tell us a bit about yourself. 

    Karen: Yeah, well, I'm up in the north of England is where I can meet you in the Lake  District. So I'm at a church called Trinity Church, Lancaster and I sort of am responsible for  women's ministry there, but I also do some other women's ministry sort of in other places.  So our church is part of a little network called Anchor Commission in England and I'm the  director of women's ministry for that. So I'm involved with teaching women the Bible in lots  of different settings, really. That's how I love to spend my time, opening up the Bible with people. 

    Sarah: Very good. Well, Karen, so you recently spent time in Ecclesiastes as Listy just  shared with us and you've taught it to others. What's most struck you about the book as a  whole as you've been kind of marinating in it and teaching in it? 

    Karen: I think actually what struck me about this book is how important it is. Now, I know  everyone always says that about any book that you're studying at the time. As you open up the book, you start to study it, you go, this is the most important, it's really necessary in our  world. I mean, it's obviously always been really necessary, but I think we struggle with it as  Christians because it doesn't say what we want it to say. And so I know that people have  had very sort of I spoke to a young mum who said, I hate Ecclesiastes. It's such a  depressing book and also teaching it with some students who also sort of struggling with it  because what they wanted Ecclesiastes to say, it didn't say, it doesn't point clearly to Jesus  in the way that they would like it to. It doesn't point to the rescue and the grace of God in  the way that they want. So it doesn't have that sort of gospel hope. It does talk about  judgment and eternity, but it doesn't seem to have the gospel hope that people want. They  look at this book and go, oh, this is an uncomfortable book, it's really miserable. And yet, as  I've worked with it and one of the things I've actually just seen before I talked to you this  morning, I did walk my dog so that she wouldn't be barking in the background. And she  was well exercised. And I re listened to David. Souchet his reading of Ecclesiastes and just  let the book wash over me. And the more I just go through the whole thing and let the ideas  wash over, the more it resonates to just practical things in life, day to day living discipleship  issues, but also the heart that we need to have if we are going to repent and believe the  good news. Because I think unless we really understand we're living in Ecclesiastes world.  We don't understand our need for Jesus. So I think it exposes the heart that we the lies that  I'll go on and on, but, yeah, I think there are lies that we believe. We believe that we're in  control. We believe that things will all be sorted out if we just do things the right way. And  Ecclesiastes says, what is crooked cannot be made straight, and what God has made  crooked cannot be made straight. And Ecclesiastes describes a fallen world, and it's a  fallen world which we cannot redeem ourselves. But I think we spend so much time trying  to think that we can, and it doesn't tell you not to do good things and to be wise and to  implement good relationships. And it even talks about ruling cities and having wise leaders  and politics. It talks to politics. So it's not saying there isn't an attempt to do good. We're  called to do good. But the fact that actually we will fail and the fact that injustice keeps on  coming, the fact that the horrors are still there, and the fact that good people suffer, all o those things Ecclesiastes is so real about. So I think it does leave us gasping for eternal  hope. So I'll stop there because I can keep going. 

    Felicity: That's really helpful. Really helpful and just pushing in a bit, pressing in a bit to  that. And the kind of I think that's really helpful. You're saying the lies that we believe and  how Ecclesiastes says things that we don't really want to hear but do ring true for reality, I  think that's such a good that's kind of what's going on, isn't it? We're being exposed in that  now, you've just taught this to a group of women, those things that you're saying, that's a  great sort of understanding of what's going on in Ecclesiastes. But why would we want to  get this book open with other people? That sounds a little bit depressing in the sense of all  of those things being exposed. We're always encouraging people to get the Bible open with  someone else. It's helpful to have these conversation with other people. I think as I've been  in Ecclesiastes, it's not the one when I'm meeting up with my women from church, my  friends, whatever, I'm not thinking, just can't wait for the opportunity to get Ecclesiastes  open. So can you persuade us, or what's persuaded you that this is a book to get open  with other people and not just to kind of mull on those things on our own? 

    Karen: Yeah, I would say what's persuaded me is I do think it's an incredibly practical  book. I think it does two things, I think. One, I think it actually does help us in our  discipleship. So I think it does point to things that are good and the things that are  important. So the preacher in Ecclesiastes is asking questions, isn't he? And he's looking,  trying to understand what the world is like under heaven, how God has established  everything and how it works. But he also is looking at life under the sun. And that's sort of  the day to day experience. But within that, he's asking a question and he asks the question  in chapter one, what is it good to do? What is it good to do, considering that we're living in  a fallen world? And I think he does address that. He just doesn't answer it in the  straightforward way that we would say what's good to do? Number one, it's good to work.  Number two, it's good to go to the house of God and fear the Lord. He does it in all sorts of  strange orders. And I think those things that are good are really sort of fundamental things  that we would acknowledge are good. It's good to have food to eat, it's good to have work  to do. It's good to have friends and to not be on your own. He doesn't even say wealth is bad. He actually says wealth is good if you use it well and it's for the sake of others. It's  good to enjoy marriage, it's good to have contentment, and that's a gift of God. And it  actually strips away a whole load of things that I think we think are good which are added  ons and it actually points to the so this is what a good life is. But then at the same time it  says you might not have it. Whatever you do, you can't control what you might have. You  might the wise. Life often does bring good things, but then again, it might not. So you've  always got that tension all the way through. But I actually think we need that. I think we  need it in our discipleship. We need that realistic view of what matters. What are the things  that we can enjoy but also know that we can't hold on to them? They're not eternal. It's that  word, isn't it? Meaningless. I don't know why they translate it meaningless. It's so  unhelpful, isn't it? The heavy word, which is sort of you can't grasp that mist, that vanishing  thing, that it's just going to be temporary. And so even the good things that we can enjoy  now are temporary. And having that perspective is the preacher's perspective and what he  says, and then the big kick. And I think it's interesting that right at the end it is addressed to  the young person, isn't it? Remember your Creator in the days of your youth and he does  say, and you can enjoy all these things, but remember your Creator in the days of your  youth and remember for all these things you'll be brought into judgment. So there's this sort  of these are the good things and they're great. God has given them to us and we can  rejoice in them, but don't live for them. They're not everything. You might not be able to  keep hold of them. And when things get really, really tough and you don't have them, that is  the reality of a fallen world. We are in exile now. And what we're to do now, today at the  moment we have, is to remember our Creator and to remember Him and to walk faithfully  whatever comes our way. And I think it does teach us how to walk. It teaches us that we're  not in control. But God is. The whole end of the book. The phrase you do not know, you do  not know, you do not know, comes over and over and over again. We think we do know. We  think we've got systems and everything in place. That means that we can work it all out and  we're in control of our lives, but we're not. And we need to know that God is in control. He  is ruling over all time and he is bringing us to eternity one day when every single thing we  do in the here and now matters and is brought to account. So how we live now matters, but  how we experience life now could be well, the good, the bad and the ugly as far as the  writer of ecclesiastes is concerned and enjoy the good, but when there's the bad still hold  on. Because it's not that God isn't in control, he still is in control. So that's a sort of a  discipleship thing, I think. evangelistically there's a huge other theme, which is that over the  fact that everything is temporary, you need to know that you're going to die. And we live in  a world that does know that it's going to die. People do know they're going to die, and yet  at the same time they kind of deny it all at the same time. And there's a center section, isn't  it? It's better to go into the house of mourning than the house of feasting because actually  that gives you the reality of life is short and you are going to die. And then it builds up to  that incredible poem in chapter twelve, which I think is one of the most amazing things  written about aging. I mean, Shakespeare has a go with the ages of man, but it's not a  touch on Proverbs. And that final sort of chapter of this decay and this awfulness that is the inevitable truth of our lives. Our media is telling us endlessly that that's not how it's going to  be, that we can do things with ourselves now. Avoid ultra processed food they talk about  living in. Have you heard about Blue Zones? And that's sort of the areas in the world where  people live to 100 because they have amazing diets. So copy their diets and you'll live to  100. But the end of ecclesiastes still stands. Whatever you do, that decay is inevitable and  you need to remember God. You need to have that perspective. It's so important. It was in  England for english viewers, and it Strictly Come Dancing season. One of the judges who  was there from the beginning of the show, from, I don't know, the early 2000s, it's been  going for ages, died this year. He was a very popular figure and they opened up the show and during the show they actually had a tribute to him, the reality. Even in the midst of this  great big party, his death was real. He's unavoidable and he'd been great and he'd been  dancing into his indwelling to his seventy so and he died. One of the other judges who's on  the panel now is in her 60s. There Was Pictures of her all over the weekend papers looking  glamorous and Talking about being beautiful and Sexy in her sixties. And You Think It's  such a lie, the idea that We Can somehow, at the same time, there's this Tension of sort of  almost trying to portray, look At Me. I'm in my sixties and I Can Do all these amazing things.  Yeah, I've got eternal youth, but you haven't. And actually, you know, one of your colleagues died this year. Death is the reality, and we are constantly trying to pretend that  it's not. And the big kick for Ecclesiastes is that what do we need to do? Fear the Lord. We  need to fear the Lord now, today. None of us know what's going to happen. Some of us  might not live to old age, but we must fear the Lord. I think that's an evangelistic call. I think  fear the Lord is almost could be two words that summarize the evangelistic call of the Bible.  It doesn't tell you the hope, but if you went to Psalm two, those that fear the Lord, run to  him. So fear the Lord rightly means turning to him and acknowledging him as your creator.  And that's where the rescue is. 

    Sarah: So helpful, Karen. So helpful in so many different ways there. I want to pick up the on how we do bring this to Jesus, how we do see Jesus in the pages of Ecclesiastes that  isn't just a kind of flattened every time the application is the same of fear the Lord because it is in one sense, isn't it? That is the right application of it, but also the cross isn't flat 

    There's so much depth to it. So how do we start to see Jesus on these pages in a way that  isn't just kind of plastering him on at the end of every time we have a conversation, if that  makes. 

    Karen: Yeah, no, it does make complete sense. I think there are two, although obviously  there are other places. I mean, when you're looking at the reality of death and the chapter  on death, I think you're not plastering it on by saying, who has overcome the grave? Jesus  has overcome the grave. So I think the resurrected Jesus we do want to point to the hope.  The preacher in Ecclesiastes isn't talking explicitly about the resurrected Lord, but there is  that shepherd at the end and you think Jesus is the good shepherd. Jesus came and that  Mark says you repent and believe the good news. I do think in some ways that is another  way of saying fear the Lord. But when Jesus comes, he is the good news. So we've got  that good news we can tell people. The good news is that when you face judgment, you've  someone who's taken that judgment on himself. Because again, Ecclesiastes has this thing  of there is no one righteous that comes clear. None of us can stand in that judgment. So we  do want to say as we look at ourselves and we know that we're not righteous, Jesus is our  righteousness, Jesus is our rescue, Jesus is our resurrection. And I like the way Paul actually  and I'm pretty sure in Acts 17 that he's got Ecclesiastes Three in his head when he's  preaching and he talks in that very famous sermon in Athens, isn't it? When he's telling  them that God has established all the times and places that is Athens, isn't it, where they've  got all the idols around and he says they've got the altar to the unknown God. And he tells  them about the God that they don't yet know. And he says, God's established all your times  and places that you would be born so that we might fear Him, so we might turn to Him and  know think that's a very Ecclesiastes idea. And then he says, and God has appointed the  man Jesus Christ as the Judge. And when we think of judgment, I don't think we always  think of Jesus, but the Judge that we will face one day is also Jesus. So Jesus is our  righteousness and Jesus is our resurrection and Jesus is our Judge. And the call that Paul  uses evangelistically, God has made you, he has created all things that turn to Him,  because Jesus is established as the Judge and one day he's going to judge you. And that's  an interesting evangelistic talk, isn't it's? Not really the style we tend to go for. But it's  interesting how much I think as you read through the evangelistic sermons in Acts, they  point to Jesus as the Judge and the fact that he died, has risen and is seated at the right  hand. The Father has established Him as judge of the living and the dead and that's how  he's going to return, as the judge of the living and the dead. And that's how Ecclesiastes  finishes. So that is I don't think that's a flat 

    Felicity: No, I think that's really helpful. I'm just exploring a few of those we've been talking  a little bit about, and I think this is very ecclesiastes, kind of. There's so many different sort of tensions and strands within that of the fact that Jesus did enter into this broken world  and the compassion that he has for us and how he walks alongside us in that. Because  you're right, as you were saying earlier, those tensions, this is so real, but it also can be so  painful. And what do we do with that in the midst of that? And we've been encouraged by  just thinking, jesus does know. He does know this broken world. God stepped into this  world. And that's been a comforting thing to be thinking about. And that's part of where  we've felt ecclesiastes land for us. And a few of these other things that you're saying as we  kind of go from here, as we think about taking ecclesiastes out of listening to it on this  podcast or in the Word, how might the wisdom then of ecclesiastes shape the way we think and we feel and we walk? How do we take it? So lots of what you're saying there is very  helpful and mind shifting, perspective shifting, and kind of as we hear ecclesiastes, we  think, okay, my perspective is being shift. How else does it then impact us as we go from  here, as we kind of shut the Bible and walk on? 

    Karen: Yeah, okay. As you're talking, there's one other thing I just want to say. Please do,  please. I will answer that question. Just make sure you keep hold of it. Because I just think  the other thing that I think Jesus does, which is wonderful with the turn in Ecclesiastes that  it opens with what is crooked cannot be made straight. But when you look at Jesus coming  in Luke's gospel, you have that idea of the highways being made straight because Jesus  has come. So that restoration that you get in Jesus. And I also think there's a section  beginning chapter four where it talks about no one can be comforted. And Jesus brings  comfort, and Isaiah has that great promise. Comfort, comfort my people see, because  Jesus has come. So I think this will link with what you're thinking, because I think knowing  that ultimate comfort comes from Him. Come to me all who are weary and heavy laid. And  we can go to Jesus in our pain. And you're right, he knows that pain and he is the one we  can go to. We cannot solve everything. And that is really practical. It's practical in our day  to day. There are situations we face and they're just beyond us. But we can take them to  Him. There's no promises guaranteed this side of heaven that it will all be sorted. But he  calls us to take all our prayers and requests and petitions to Him. And so I think it should  call us to pray it's consciously. You can't solve this. But he is the One that can make the  crooked straight. He can do these things and we can trust them, Him with them. So I think  holding on to Him, walking with Him, praying and knowing that each day matters, walking  faithfully matters now. So seeking to serve daily, every day, we don't know what we can do  tomorrow, but we know what we can do today. And I think Ecclesiastes practically is  saying, use what you have now, don't delay, do it now. You don't know what's around the  corner, so do it now. And because you don't know what's around the corner, be wise, make  good plans. I mean, that's chapter eleven, isn't it? Be sensible, do invest, do think, do plan,  do look, be diligent, be hardworking. I mean, I think all those practical things are there, but  also you might be chopping the wood and you might get damaged by a splinter. Because  he can't resist doing that, can he? All these wonderful, these little phrases, and you just  think, oh, man, who's chopping the wood will get damaged by it. He's not telling you not to  chop the wood. He's saying, do it, you work. But something might happen. But there's a  push to use today. Well, to serve today. Now on remembering all the time that God is in  heaven and that there's a place for everything, and I love that. Again, that's the other I  mean, even unbelievers love, ecclesiastes, chapter three, and the poem about time, even  non Christians will be happy to have that read out at their funeral. But the truth is that that is  very, very important to us, practically, isn't it? There is a time to laugh, and that's great, and  there's a time to cry, and it's not wrong to cry and to grieve and to mourn. It's really  practical about the nitty gritty of day to day life and holding on to the Lord in everything. 

    Felicity: Thank you, Karen. It's so freeing. So freeing as well, I think, kind of getting a hold  of this and living in light of that, it takes. 

    Karen: The pressure off, doesn't yeah, yeah, definitely. I think we get burdened by think I've got to solve other people's problems. I've got to be everything to everybody, and I'm  trying to rescue them. And Jesus is their savior. We're called to do what we can faithfully. I  love the word plotting. I always feel like that's what we're called to do, really, just to plot  faithfully with the resources at our hands and rejoice in the resources that we've been given.  And if we can rejoice in that, that is a gift of God. That is very clear. Ecclesiastes says, if you  can rejoice in the work that you've been given and the situation you're in, that's a gift. And I  think that's also an opportunity for us to witness to the world. Because again, that's the  other thing that comes through in Ecclesiastes, that never ending desire for wanting more,  never being satisfied. It says, the eye cannot see enough and the ear cannot hear enough and I always want more, and I'm never satisfied. And living amongst those people who are so discontent for us as believers to know, whatever my circumstances with Paul, I'm  content. I mean, that is a joyful place. Privileged, God given, place to be in the gospel. 

    Sarah: That's wonderful. And I think, Karen, all of this has just been so helpful. And I think,  as Christy, I know that we've both been saying that Ecclesiastes feels like a slow burn, like  we've been sitting in it and we're sitting in it. And the more that we do, the more that we're appreciating the goads, the prods that we need to walk in this way.  And you have wonderfully displayed that and helped us see that. And we're just so thankful  for you. Would you pray for us and our listeners as we close? 

    Karen: Oh, yes, absolutely. 

    Sarah: Thank you. 

    Karen: Oh, Heavenly Father, we want to thank you for this wonderful wisdom that you've  given us. We pray that you forgive us for not listening to your wisdom. Father, we thank you  that knowing you actually is the beginning of wisdom and fearing you is the beginning of  wisdom. Father, pray for all of us as we spend time in Ecclesiastes, that we will really fear  you and know what that means to have that reverent awe of you and to live our lives each  day for Your sake. To live as you would call us, to live to rejoice with the good things that  you have given us and to live with the pains and the struggles and the things that we  haven't got, but know we can hold on to you because you understand. Father, I pray that  you will help everyone who's going to spend some time in Ecclesiastes begin to see this  world rightly in deeper ways, to understand the pains and the struggles and the suffering in a fallen world. But where you're pointing us towards is eternity. And the fact that we long for  eternity is a good thing. The fact that we long for things to be put right, the crooked be  made straight is a good thing. Help us to know that Jesus is the one that makes things  straight. Jesus is the one that comforts. Jesus is the one who's destroyed death. Jesus is  the one who is going to one day judge this world, but a perfect judge. Not a failed,  unrighteous judge, but the righteous judge that we can trust. And may we rejoice in Him  more because we understand the horrors of a world without Him. And we ask that in Jesus Name. Amen. 

    Felicity: Amen. Thank you so much, Karen. What a joy to have you part of this. Really,  really grateful. 

    Sarah: Don't forget to check out our free downloads library on our website twosistersandacupoftea.com that has a growing collection of resources to help you dig into the Bible for yourself and with others. And we look forward to seeing you next Friday as we carry on with our Two Sisters and Friends season. 

    This season has been sponsored by The Good Book Company.

 

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Episode 5: Growing in Obedience with Jen Wilkin