Episode 3: Seeing Jesus in the Old Testament with Nancy Guthrie
We don't think we can overstate how significant our conversation with Nancy was part way through our Deuteronomy season. It is still so deeply memorable for us both, as she helped us to see Jesus in each page of the book, rooting our confidence in both Christ's presence and sufficiency. Enjoy coming with us, as we listen again to the riches of this conversation!
Nancy is an author and Bible teacher, she says: “To me, God’s Word is a treasure to be mined, the deeper I go, the more I see its wisdom, the more it authenticates itself, the more it reveals to me the beauty of God’s plan to redeem all things through Christ.” Nancy has authored over 30 books and is also training women to understand some of the major themes that run from Genesis through to Revelation in her Biblical Theology workshops for women.
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How does Jesus himself help us think about more unfamiliar books of the Old Testament (like Deuteronomy)?
Knowing that we’re in Christ, how does this change the way we read things like the law portions of the Old Testament?
How has this conversation helped thrill your heart with Jesus?
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This episode is sponsored by The Good Book Company.
A Christian publisher who is passionate about Jesus, they aim to create and select biblical, relevant and accessible resources that will encourage you and your church family to keep going, keep growing and keep sharing your faith. Check out their website for excellent resources.
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The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Sarah: You are listening to the Two Sisters in a Cup of Tea podcast, the Bible study podcast for everyday life. Felicity lives in the US, whilst I, Sarah, live in the UK, and you'll usually find us chatting for 20 minutes or so over a cup of tea and an English style biscuit as we open up the Bible and drive it to our hearts. This season is all about appreciating afresh the wisdom of friends as we dig into the Bible across the seasons together and today we're diving into our Deuteronomy season to freshly enjoy all of Nancy Guthrie's wisdom as she helped us to see Jesus in the Old Testament.
Felicity: Before we introduce our conversation, we want to share another resource from The Good Book Company. Lily, the Lemur and the Lamb King by Bob Hartman is a book that my seven-year-old son and I giggled our way through when we read it together. It's a short chapter book in which a group of quirky characters have a series of adventures in the Lamb King's playground. As we learn about this playground and its owner, we catch sight of Jesus and are drawn into his way of life. It's funny, but it's also moving and it made me want to follow Jesus more, even as the adult reading it to my child. My son loved it and he really wants to give this book to all his friends. Grab a copy at The Good Book Company. Link in the show notes.
Sarah: So we're about to get into a conversation with Nancy. Felicity, I think you'll agree that so much of this conversation has stuck with us since. I just remember sitting there in awe as she kind of widened and deepened my grasp of seeing Jesus.
Felicity: Mm, I loved, she so clearly helped us see Jesus, but particularly she helped us see how we're safe in him. And as we're safe in him, we can freely and without fear of condemnation go deep with what it is to be obedient to the Lord and his word. And it was so, I remember just these light bulb moment going off and it just changing the way that I read Old Testament law. And in fact, just all of that call to obedience throughout the scriptures.
Sarah: Oh, it so good, wasn't it? I remember just sitting there and just saying, keep talking, keep going. I know this is meant to be a conversation, but just also just keep speaking.
Felicity: I know, and there's such genuine delight in her, isn't it? She just like, once she gets on her flow of talking about Jesus, you just can't stop her, and that's the best, the best thing. it's a treasure of a conversation. Let's get into it.
Nancy: Wow, what a treat to be with the two sisters. Does this mean I can be sister number three?
Felicity: Oh Yeah, honorary.
Nancy: Love that. I do love tea. I've kind of had my fill of it so far today, but I can alway use more.
Felicity: What would be your choice of tea?
Nancy: Oh, I would like a fruity black tea. Right. Yeah. So this morning I had twinnings. Do you say twinnings or twinings?
Sarah: Twinings.
Nancy: Twinings. All right, so I had Twinings mixed berry black tea.
Sarah: Oh, that sounds really nice. I'm just going to find some
Nancy: Yeah.
Felicity: I never thought of putting fruit with black tea. That's interesting.
Nancy: Never thought of it.
Felicity: Clearly I've missed the Twinings memo about that.
Nancy: Clearly, you need to try the mango and the peach.
Felicity: Well, good to know. Good to know.
Nancy: I love instructing these two Brits about tea.
Felicity: But the real question is, how do you feel about biscuits of the English variety?
Nancy: Of the English variety? Because they're cookie like. I am all for it, but, you know, I love an American biscuit as well, but with honey, except then my fingers get all sticky and don't like that, but I love a biscuit. Sometimes it can be a bit bland, but in general, anything that's cookie like material, I'm pretty much all for.
Felicity: Fair enough. We're excited, Nancy, that you're here to help us see Jesus in Deuteronomy, and you have written numerous, dozens of books. Sarah and I have both benefited hugely from your books and from your teaching, so we're grateful for all that you've been doing on that front. I was thinking a few recent books we've got that God does his best work with empty. Even better than Eden. A personal favorite. The kids book. I see Jesus. And I think your most recent kids book, True King. Are you working on anything at the moment?
Nancy: I'm not. Don't tell your husband, he'll want to fill up my yeah, my to do list, right? I am busy and I do have a couple of ideas in the hopper that I'll start on. One thing that drives me, Felicity, is that I always teach the women of my church in the summers and so that's always a push for me to get started working on teaching something else so that I'm prepared in June and July to teach at my own church. So that's what's pushing me now.
Felicity: Brilliant.
Sarah: Always busy.
Felicity: That's true. Busy for the Lord. And we're really hopeful that and this is going to be a fruitful conversation for us and for our listeners and we're excited that you're here to help us with this.
Sarah: Yeah, great. So should we crack on with some of the questions, Nancy? So as we told you, we're in the book of Deuteronomy for this season and we've been really enjoying it and we really just want your wisdom on what it looks like to really see Jesus in this book. A more general question to start off with then. So as people living this side of the cross, how are we to understand the use of the Old Testament for us? I know that's a huge question, but could you just give kind of a few pointers for our listeners on that?
Nancy: Well, I think we want to understand it the way Jesus taught his followers to understand it. So that makes me think about John 5 where he says to the religious leaders, basically he says, you think your law keeping is going to get you eternal life, but the truth is you don't even believe the Scriptures because the Scriptures are all about me. And when he said that, they must have just been like, what are you talking about? You are this carpenter from Nazareth and we are experts in the Scriptures and we don't see you in there. Or even more significantly or the verse that honestly really changed my life was when I really grasped what was happening in Luke 24 when Jesus is walking on that road to Emmaus with two of his followers. They have seen him crucified. They know he's been put in the tomb in Jerusalem. They've heard these reports that maybe Jesus has resurrected from the dead, but they don't recognize that that's actually the risen Jesus walking with them. And they're so disappointed. They say, we thought he was the one who would redeem Israel. And Jesus's response to them is amazing. He says to them, oh foolish ones, so slow of heart to believe all the prophets had spoken. Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer before being glorified? So in other words, he's saying, you know what, guys if you had been reading your Bibles and for them that would be the Old Testament and especially the books of the law, including Deuteronomy. And he's basically saying, if you had been reading them rightly, then you would know that when the Messiah, the Christ, came, the way he was going to usher in victory would be through incredible defeat. The way glory was going to come would be through suffering. And then it says, beginning with Moses and the prophets, he explained all things concerning himself. Now, that's an incredible statement. I mean, when I hear that, first thing I think is, now, Luke, why didn't you record more about what he said right now? Because I would like to know! No, but I think it sets forth how we're going to read the Old Testament. It says that Jesus says that we should look at he says beginning with Moses, we're going to look at Genesis and Exodus and Leviticus and numbers and Deuteronomy. And we're going to ask ourselves the question and seek to find the best answer we can to it, which is what does this part of what Moses has written, what is it telling me about who the Christ will be and what the Christ will do and accomplish? And so I think Jesus's instruction is to look at the Old Testament and ask that question, what do I see of the Christ here?
Felicity: I love that. I love that. And that is so clear, isn't it? You're right, especially in that Luke 24 it’s such a statement. And so that's licensed to then ask the question, isn't it? I think that it's a push to do that more and more. And so I think when we open the Bible, we want to be knowing and loving Jesus more every time we pick up our Bible and I hear your answer to that question, I think, brilliant, this is it. The Old Testament is also all a part of that, which is just so true. And I know that to be true, but it can feel not quite that easy when you come to a book like Deuteronomy. So how can a book like Deuteronomy help us to be knowing and loving Jesus more every time we open it up?
Nancy: I can see why you would say it that way in so many ways. When do you think, oh, a book of Deuteronomy full of this law, so much of it seems so ancient, so much seems so foreign. And in fact, we look at it and we say, does this apply to me in the same way it did to the original readers? And our answer would be, no, it doesn't. And so then we've got a challenging question in terms of what does it mean to me? But I actually think it is this going to it asking, what difference is Jesus going to make? What difference is it going make when Jesus comes and when he does, what he's going to do? What difference is that going to make? And how I understand it? And Jesus makes all the difference as we read book like Deuteronomy. I think like so much of the rest of the Old Testament, we read it and let's say we're in the law, part of Deuteronomy, all of these instructions about what we're going to do. And I always find it humorous when someone says, well, I think basically you to be a Christian, you just have to live by the Ten Commandments. And I always think to myself, yeah, well, good luck with that, right? Because, I mean, that's just not easy. Who is it who thinks they can? I'd be shocked by that, right? And so I think we're meant to actually look in the law and go, oh man, I would aspire to live a life like that. And when I look at that, I see the beautiful character of God, the law of God, in that we see God's compassion and his holiness and really his love for his people in the way that he's calling us to love our neighbour and interact with Him and with everyone else. I mean, we can look at it that way, but we also have this sense of, but I can never do this. And that can lead us to just feel hopeless unless we really do believe that there is going to be one who is going to come. And he's actually, when he says that he's come to fulfill the law, it means that he's going to live out the demands of the law perfectly. And so maybe someone says, well, what difference does that make to me? Well, this makes all the difference. And this is what makes it urgent for every one of us that we become united to Christ by faith, and by that I mean we reach out and we take hold of Christ. And by that we say, okay, Jesus, your perfect love for the law, your perfect obedience to the law, as I take hold of you, that perfect righteousness becomes mine. But that's just like, one end of the equation. Because the other end of the equation is that all of my failure to keep your law in other words, all of my failure to love the Lord my God all of my failure in the ways I've taken his name in vain, all the ways I have coveted the things of my neighbour and all the ways I've been unfaithful and untruthful and not kept his Sabbath, which, to even just say it, you start to feel a load of it, right? But my lifelong failure to do all those things has transferred to Jesus. And so if your question is, how can I read something like this and love Jesus, it's because when I look into this law, I see my own failure, but I see the love of Christ taking all of my unrighteousness, my law breaking, and not just like the little slip ups, but the outright rebellion against God's law. And Jesus has taken that, all of that upon Himself and in that same sweep transferred to me his perfect record of righteousness. And why has he done that? Because here's something amazing. The God who made the world actually has a desire to dwell with his people, which includes me. And so he has done everything necessary to make it possible for me to enter into union with Christ now and then one day enter into his perfectly holy and righteous presence. And so I look at Deuteronomy and I might initially feel hopeless. I think I'm meant to actually initially feel hopeless, but then I look at there's something to me, one of the most interesting things in Deuteronomy is early on you hear this command to the people of God, they're supposed to circumcise their hearts. Have you guys already talked about this?
Sarah: Yes. Got that tension of do it yourself.
Nancy: And then later on exactly, he says, I'm going to do that. Well, to me, I mean, if we're looking for a reason to love Him and Deuteronomy, we get to see here that everything he commands, he will provide for us and all of our hopelessness about being able to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, our soul, our mind and our strength. We know that when we are united to Christ, he does a work in the interior of our lives. The Holy Spirit goes to work in us, circumcising our hearts. And the way I would describe what that's all about is he's giving us the want to, because that's the other desperate need, right? Not only do I want that transaction in terms of his judgment that I am judged righteous just because I've received the imputed righteousness of Christ, I want the reality of the righteousness of Christ to be growing in my life. I want to live out my life in this world being more like Christ tomorrow than I am today. And the only way that's going to happen is if God, by His Spirit, through His Word, is at work in my life, giving me the want to, to actually overcome some of my own sinful wants and desires and to be at work sanctifying them, so that I find myself increasingly, day by day finding that what I want more and more lines up with what God wants, so that I love what he loves and I hate what he hates. That's the goal and aim of my life. And I think that is the promise of the Book of Deuteronomy.
Sarah: That's so helpful. That's so helpful. That phrase kind of giving us the want to really appreciate that the way that he phrased that. Can I push you on just what it looks like to see that in the language of Deuteronomy? I think one of the challenges I felt is that I'm reading and trying to soak myself in Deuteronomy, and at the same time I'm thinking, well, I feel like I need to read Romans and Hebrews. Deuteronomy is everywhere, isn't it? As you kind of start to kind of pick up the language. You're seeing it in every other book in the Bible. It feels like, what does it look like to apply deeply to my heart with the language of Deuteronomy and not kind of fast forwarding too soon to New Testament or I don't know, is there a danger there? I think we've been discussing, haven't we? Are we going too quickly to Jesus? Is the answer here. Is it possible to do that or not? Talk us through how you approach some of those questions.
Nancy: Yeah, defines what you mean by too quickly. So I would say this, I would say for most of my life in Bible study, no matter where I was be reading the Old Testament. And pretty much we got very quickly to asking the question, how do I apply this to me? And if you're going in a direct line from reading Deuteronomy to how does this apply to me? Yes, that's too quickly. So what have you got to do 1st? 1st, you go from the text to what did this mean to the original readers? Or in other words, them then and that's very important for a book of Deuteronomy, especially when we get into that civil law, don't boil a goat in his mother's milk, those kinds of things. If we get to those kinds of things, we've got to understand what did that mean to them then? Why were they given those kind of instructions at this point in Israel's history and at this point in the covenant relationship between God and his people? But we also don't want to go from there directly to then how am I going to apply it to me? Because it is important to us. We don't want to read the Bible like simply Old Testament Jews. We want to read it in light of the person and work of Jesus Christ. And so the next question we ask is, what difference does the life, death and resurrection of Jesus make for how I'm going to understand Deuteronomy and therefore apply it to myself? And it makes all the difference. His life makes a difference because righteous life, he lived out this law. His death makes a difference because he died for my lawlessness. And his resurrection makes a difference because he ever lives to intercede for me. And that resurrection life is what enables me to live in new life as the Spirit is working me. And so when I take all, then I finally get to how does this apply to me? And I've got the richness of all of those things and I'm able to rightly apply it to me. So I do think you can go too quickly. But I guess I heard in your question, like, you want to be completely satisfied with just what you read in Deuteronomy, and maybe there are some places to that, but I still think you got to get to Christ when I think about places in Deuteronomy that warm my heart. I love that passage. It's either in six or seven where he's talking about I chose you. And he says, I didn't choose you because you were the strongest or the most or whatever. I love it because it's kind of like I can hear God just saying I loved you because I loved you.
Sarah: It's an amazing phrase, he set his affection on them, isn't it?
Nancy: I love that phrase there. Right. When I think about that, I think about that being Godlike love. It's love that, in a sense, goes against merit. And it causes me to look at the way I interact with people and to take joy in setting my love on people, especially people who don't have a lot to give back to me and people that they might not seem worth it or they might not seem worthy or whatever else, but find great joy in that. And then personally just realizing that's the case for me with God, that he because I'm a part of God's people I know it wasn't because I was smart enough or because I showed a lot of potential or any of those things. It's just solely that in God's sovereignty, he chose to set his love on me, to draw me to Himself. That's so humbling, that humbles me when I think about family members who maybe grew up in the same home I did but aren't in Christ. And it humbles me that he's drawn me to Himself and that he set his love on me in this way. In that sense, I think just in Deuteronomy it's warming my heart, it's challenging me. It's showing me something about the love of God. But that love of God comes to me through the person and work of Christ. So still got to get to Christ to feel it.
Felicity: I think that was really helpful what you were saying a few minutes ago. As we see God's character in the law in Deuteronomy, we see who he is and we see the person of Christ in that kind of even the idea of the perfect obedience that comes in that. And I think I found that that then has really provoked my desire to want to be obedient and what it looks like to be obedience this side of the cross and the other side of the cross that's different in terms of what we do with the Lord. But the actual heart of desiring obedience, as you say, that the Lord has given through his grace that want to do it. That's been something that's really struck me. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think through Jesus, then I see that more clearly and I see the life more clearly and I see God's character more clearly. We're so privileged to be this side of the cross in that sense. But it then still raises the question again, which is just in my mind probably unfathomable as to how we then apply this to us. You're so true, Nancy. We always have to pull it back to Jesus and we see it through Jesus, and we're not seeking to apply it without Jesus. But I want to be obedient because of Jesus. I want to be obedient and it's a desirable life. And I'm still kind of like oh, what does that actually look like for me reading Deuteronomy now? And maybe that is just something that you just kind of mull on as life goes on and you kind of get to know God better and you see what it is to be obedient to Him.
Sarah: But do you not think it's part of his call to holiness and his call to Godliness which is becoming like Him, isn't it? That is what holiness is. And part of seeing his character in the law that we're starting to see it is beautiful. And then you do see that in Jesus. You do see that he drew near to those in need always. And yeah, as Nancy has been saying, as it stirred her heart, it's that similar, oh, Lord, I do want to draw near it's that flow of worship involved in that as well, isn't it? That actually that begins to be then, a worship of the Lord and not just a dutiful. I should do this.
Felicity: Yes.
Nancy: This makes me think about Psalm One. And do you remember in Psalm One where he's talking about, blessed is the man who doesn't walk in the way of the ungodly? Remember that the three things that don't influence him. But it says but but in contrast, it's saying that the blessed person or the blessed man is the one. His delight is in the law of the Lord, and on that law he meditates day and night. So I kind of think he's saying he delights in Deuteronomy. Yes, and he reads it day and night. And, you know, I use this often at the Biblical theology workshops that I do and just talk about, you know, what it means to be a person who approaches the word of God. And we don't approach it just with a sense of duty, but we have some delight in it. And how I really think that shows that the Spirit is at work in us, that we can delight in it. But the truth is, it's a good example of nobody can delight in the law of the Lord apart from Christ, because apart from the Christ, the law only damns us, the lawn Deuteronomy. We should dread, hate, fear, Deuteronomy apart from Christ because we simply can't do it. And God is clear, especially as we get later in Deuteronomy, his demands for obedience, his promises of blessings for those who obey and curses for disobedience and I mean goodness. Who could delight in that if we thought it was all going to be all up to us to just keep it perfectly? And we've got the whole history of the Old Testament to show us, if you think you can, which the people in Deuteronomy, they've already said that right? They already said, okay, Lord, everything you tell us to do, like they raise their hands and cross their hearts and hopes to die, we're going to do it right? And when you read that, they say that, you go, oh boy, setting themselves up. Exactly. This is not going to work out well for them. Well, the same with us. We look at it, we long to live, we long for our lives to be conformed to this shape, this character. But the only way we can delight in this law is because we know we belong, body and soul, to our faithful Creator Jesus Christ, and that he has fulfilled the law in our place and he has taken our punishment for all of our failures to obey this law. And because of that, we can delight in Deuteronomy. We can delight in trying to figure out how can I love the Lord my God with all of my heart and my soul and my mind and my strength? And I can afford to really interrogate my own heart in regard to loving Him first and dealing with the idols in my life and dealing with the covetousness in my life. And I can afford to really investigate an interrogate my own heart in that because I know there is one who has fulfilled it for me. But because he loves me and because his spirits living within me, I'm not content to just stay how I am. I want to be more and more conformed to his image.
Felicity: So good, especially because I can afford
Sarah: To actually delve into my sin almost and just kind of expose it because I'm safe to do that in Jesus. That's really helpful because actually, the way Moses preaches this sermon in Deuteronomy, he makes he squirmed, doesn't he? Like from the first few verses, th people have got a squirming as they hear what he has to say about their hearts and about the sin. And we've really felt that, haven't we? But actually, as you say, that safety, to feel that, to repent, to keep coming to Christ and to ask Him to root out that sin in that island idolatry and replace it. Yeah.
Nancy: And because of Christ, it's not like we take it lightly. Because of Christ? No, because I'm good. No, because of Christ and because we love Him and he loves us, we take it very seriously because we know this is the law that he loves. And he actually says, if you love me, keep my commands. And so because we love Him and because we know we are in his love, we can dare to face up to our law breaking.
Felicity: That is just such a good way to then keep reading Deuteronomy, isn't it? I feel like you go into it then with this honesty of heart and, as you say, a safety of heart, because we're actually in Christ to such a degree that we're able to do that. And that excites me. That excites me to then keep reading Deuteronomy and sort of digging into it, doesn't it? That's really helpful.
Sarah: Yeah, big time. Nancy, it's been such a joy to have you on. Thank you. This is like quietly blowing my mind with all that he said. I feel like I'm going to go need to really listen and realist and just kind of, like, take it all in again. Would you pray for us? And would you pray for our listeners, please, as we close?
Nancy: Lord, we come to you as the God who set your love on us. We can just hardly fathom that. And we know it wasn't because of what we had to offer you or to offer this world or any potential we had, because we're all that, but just because before the foundations of the world, you chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless before you. And so we come to you with great humility and great gratitude that you have made us your own. Great gratitude that you are inviting us into these covenant promises to be our God and that you will make us your people. And Lord, as we look into your law, Lord, help us to not look at it casually. Help us to not think about other people who need it. Help us to not dismiss its gravity, actually want to feel its full gravity, because that's the only way we can feel. And a true sense of gratitude for what it means that because we are joined to Christ, we can be sure that his perfect law keeping in our place has earned us a place in Your presence. We thank you and praise you for his perfect sacrifice, his perfect bearing of the penalty of our inability to live up to Your law. And we just ask you over the days to come, day by day, as we look into Your Word. Help us to not be afraid of your law, but help us as we gaze into your law, that it would urge us more closely to Christ, that we would have more love for him, more gratitude for him. Be more aware of our need for him, need for his spirit to be at work in us, giving us what we need to walk through this life in ways that please you. Your name, I pray. Amen.
Felicity: Amen. Nancy, thank you so much. Just a delight to have you here in conversation with us. An honorary sister for sure. At least until we stop recording. No, longer than that.
What a rich time with Nancy. Remember, we've got discussion questions on our website for each episode so you too can continue this conversation with friends. We look forward to seeing you next Friday as we carry on with our Two Sisters and Friends season.
This season has been sponsored by The Good Book Company.
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