Episode 8: John 16:4b-15: Glorious Presence (Part 1)
As we continue to listen in on Jesus' final words to his disciples, we're given a glorious glimpse into the work of the Holy Spirit in John 16. Join us as we tease through some of the big themes together.
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How does this passage challenge your view of the Spirit's role in the world today?
How does this passage encourage you in relation to God's word?
What will you be praying in light of both of these things?
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The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Sarah: You're listening to the Two Sisters in a Cup of Tea podcast, the Bible Study podcast for everyday life. We're here for a 20 minute burst of Bible chat over a cup of tea and an English style biscuit as we make our way through a Bible book over the course of the season and drive it to our hearts. And this season we're in John's gospel as we get stuck into chapters 12 through 17 together. Whether you've been listening for a while or have just found us, we are so pleased you're here.
Felicity: This season we're really grateful to be partnering with 10ofthose.com. Whether you're a parent yourself or are walking alongside those who are in that season, it's always helpful to have some books on the shelf that might just give some nuggets of wisdom along the way. Now, whether Sarah was my sister or not, I would be recommending this book to every expectant parent. It's called Bumps, Babies and the Gospel Preparing Your Heart for Parenting by Sarah Dargue, this one, just here. While we're preparing for physically and mentally having a baby, how about preparing our hearts and souls as well? Through a devotional and practical deep dive into Colossians, this is a necessary book for those antenatal and newborn days. Now at the other end of the spectrum, I've been enjoying Melissa Kruger's Parenting with Hope as she's been helping me look ahead to the tween and teen years of parenting with biblical insight, wisdom and practical help to go with it. Grab your copies of these books at 10ofthose.com.
Sarah: Welcome to Two Sisters and a Cup of Tea. My name is Sarah and I live in the UK. I'm here with my sister Felicity who's in the US and we are jumping back in to John's Gospel, chapter 16, verses 4 to 15 today. Felicity, I'm excited. Before we get there though, what's your take on specialty biscuits like Christmas themed biscuits for example. Or maybe Easter themed biscuits.
Felicity: Do you mean that they're shaped for the holiday?
Sarah: No, like the flavour. So we are still getting through Christmas flavour custard creams. So we've had gingerbread flavour custard creams, we've had mince pie custard creams and we've had after-eight as well. Yes, what are your thoughts on those kind of things?
Felicity: Really? I don't think I knew of the existence of these things. Christmas-flavoured custard creams hasn't made its way over here. I mean, the custard cream is not a regular occurrence over here anyway, but I would probably be of the opinion that it's a rare thing that those flavours really work, to the degree that you want to eat them more than the original. There are occasional ones out there, aren't there?
Sarah: That is my opinion. That is my opinion though. Why am I not eating a gingerbread itself? Why am I not just eating a mince pie itself rather than a kind of manufactured fake mince pie in a biscuit situation? So yeah, my thoughts are stick with the original custard cream but well done Lidl for having a go I'd say.
Felicity: Yeah, yeah, don't try and flavour the biscuit that's not supposed to taste like that. It hasn't got the same texture yet. Yeah, good effort, but we're just calling it an effort rather than achievement, I think. good, I'm Average, if not below average.
Sarah: Yes, a solid C I'd give it
Felicity: Good, I'm glad we've got that.
Sarah: Okay well before we get into reading this, before we get into reading this, Felicity we've been saying all along that this part of John's Gospel, there's been a lot of resources on it, there's been a lot we could have read. What does it look like for you to read around and to kind of glean wisdom from others without getting overwhelmed by the kind of sheer quantity of stuff that's out there?
Felicity: Hmm. Resources are so, so helpful, aren't they? And it is sometimes it does feel like, you know, there's a, especially with a pastor like this, there's a plethora of older, wiser Christians who are just ready and waiting to walk alongside me as I pick their book off the shelf. And it's just a question of who I'm going to invite in. And I think that's the thing for me is who am I going to invite in to my ongoing study of the passage? So my first thing is am I steeped in the passage myself? Have I been slowly reading it and rereading it and beginning to draw my own conclusions and I really make sure that I've done that a lot before I invite anyone else in, whether that's a book or a sermon or any of those things, just so that, because I find these people really persuasive. know, Don Carson's commentary on this is amazing. It is excellent. And yeah.
Sarah: Yeah, it feels hard to disagree with it, doesn't it?
Felicity: I'm not one to disagree with Don Carson to be fair so I then want to be absolutely sure as to what not absolutely sure as to what I think but I want to just have enough textual kind of steadiness to then hear what he's saying and I do tend to not listen or read to too much so I have really enjoyed Don Carson's commentary I've dipped into as well to some of the preach the word commentary some of the kind of crossway range of commentaries there. And then I've listened to a couple of sermons from someone that I trust, from someone who I know, I like the way that they think and I find it easy to understand how they think. So then I feel like I'm more able to pull apart what they're saying and yeah, that's my general approach. What about you Sarah? How do you go about it?
Sarah: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. think that what you're saying about the percentage of time, am I spending more time listening to what other people say rather than what God says? I think that's probably the crucial thing that I need to be watchful of, particularly when there's bits where I don't understand it and I'm just like, how long do I wrestle with this before I just go and see what else someone has said? And that, you know, in this passage today, there has been stuff where I'm like, yeah, I'm still really not quite grasping this so it's been really helpful to have other people's views on this. But again just keeping coming back to the word itself and knowing that even just mining an inch of what we've got here is worth it even if I don't understand all that's going on that's okay.
Felicity: Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, let's get into that word, shall we? And why don't you read our passage for us?
Sarah: Yes. I'd love to. Reading from chapter 16 verse 4.
I've told you this so that when their time comes you'll remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, but now I'm going to him who sent me. None of you asked me where are you going, rather you're filled with grief because I've said these things, but very truly I tell you it is for your good that I'm going away.Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment, about sin because people do not believe in me, about righteousness because I'm going to the Father, where you can see me no longer, and about judgment because the Prince of this world now stands condemned. I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me, because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said, the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.
Felicity: Thank you Sarah. love throughout all of this conversation, I think it's particularly apparent here, Jesus's kind of pastoral care for the disciples is just so clear, isn't it? And he says in that, even just that first verse here, I've told you this so that when their time comes, you will remember that I warned you. It's kind of, I'm just preparing and equipping, I'm shoring up your hearts for what is to come. And what we're going to see in these verses is that what is to come is right and necessary and is for the good even though I can just imagine as well as the disciples have very clearly made it clear through their questions it feels really anxious making that Jesus is going to go.
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, and that's not a light phrase, is it? You're filled with grief. Like, there's a deep-seated kind of sadness that's understandably come across them as they've kind of beginning to grasp that Jesus is going. But he counters that with this extraordinary statement, doesn't he, in verse 7? But very truly I tell you, which all the way through John's Gospel when we get one those phrases we know this is a really important thing he wants them to grasp, very truly I tell you it is for your good that I'm going away unless I go away the advocate will not come to you." And even that in itself, just understanding that it is for their good that he goes to the cross so that the Spirit can come. And I think even in our day and age, I think majority of people would think, it would be so much easier if Jesus was here, would be so much easier and better if we were living when Jesus was. And to the disciples who are literally in the same room as him, he's saying no. No, flip that around. It is for your good that I go so the spirit comes.
Felicity: Yeah, and even in that statement then, a challenge to us is to how much we value the work of the Spirit. And we're gonna hear a really helpful breakdown really of what the Spirit's role is, particularly in relation to the world and in relation to the disciples right here, right now. But even as I hear that, it makes me think, am I valuing the work of the Spirit in the way that I need to as I seek to keep pursuing Jesus. The Spirit's been given to us for a really good reason, like God knows what is best.
Sarah: Yeah and just this building picture of the Spirit as we've been seeing through these chapters of the world that he's a comforter, that he's the advocate, that he's the one who's going to make his home with them. He's the Spirit of truth, this building picture of just how glorious the Spirit is because he's part of the Godhead with the Father and the Son. And we see that, don’t we? Yeah, he's not separate. All that the Spirit does is through the work of the Father and the Son. But here, particularly, we've got the Spirit's work in the world, which is one of the only places in the Bible that we get this mention of what what the Spirit's role is in the world, not in believers, but in the world. And then we've got the Spirit's role for the apostles as well. So should we just tackle the kind of in the world bit first? What do we notice, Felicity?
Felicity: Yeah, well so we're looking at verse eight here, aren't we? And just from there onwards. So it says in verse eight, he'll prove to the world to be wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment. And then he goes on to explain what it is about that. The sin aspect, so verse nine, sin because people do not believe in me. And just to pause there and notice, sin according to this definition is therefore not believing or rejecting Jesus and I wonder whether that in itself is just Wow that's straightforward it sin is interconnected to our response to Jesus it's not just about whether we're doing that which is wrong like the kind of general moral value of wrong and right but this is this is connected to what we make of Jesus how we respond to Jesus.
Sarah: Yeah, it's really striking that, it? Just the heart of sin is rebellion against God because you're rejecting his son. I think earlier in John's Gospel, those who don't honour the son don't honour the father. it's that, isn't it? Yeah, this definition is Jesus focused. And that's, we need to keep kind of checking ourselves on that, don't we, in terms of how we talk about sin and what we, how we describe it to others and our children and as we think about that in just in the world and that that's the Spirit's role to convict people in the world of their sin, of the fact that they're not yet believing in Jesus, they're currently rejecting Jesus.
Felicity: Which, like, that is really good to just understand that because it means that the Spirit is at work whether people accept or reject Jesus. It's not just that the Spirit is at work when someone comes to faith. The Spirit is at work as someone is convicted of their sin and in light of what they do in response to that. So that the conviction itself is the work of the Spirit. Like also the work of the Spirit is that someone would come to Jesus. We've been seeing that all the way through John's Gospel that the Lord draws those to himself who he's going to draw to himself. So we see that all the way through but I just think that's really helpful because I'm so prone to think, God wasn't really at work because my friend just walked away from the church or whatever it may be and actually in this the clarity that he is at work in that.
Sarah: Yes. And he's at work not only in convicting of someone's own sin, but also in convicting of righteousness. And the righteousness being, this was helpfully described, Jesus is the bar of righteousness. So he exposes the unrighteousness of humanity. So yeah, in that sense, the Spirit is doing that kind of moral work, isn't he, of convicting people of where they're falling short of the bar of righteousness and then the conviction of judgment that actually that deserves judgment, that deserves the judgment of God. In just those three stages, that's really sobering, isn't it? To consider this is the Spirit's primary role in the world. That in itself is big stuff, isn't it?
Felicity: Yeah, and that is therefore necessary. God has decided that this is exactly what the Spirit needs to do. And it's necessary in order for salvation to come about, in order for the work of God to be done for the glory of the cross, but for all of these things that we've been hearing about, conviction of sin and righteousness and judgment is necessary for that. And that is God's work. That's not what we need to do, this is what God himself is doing through the work of the Spirit. And that is so, that is just really helpful, isn't it? Because I then don't need to worry that, you the world isn't realising what's gone on, what's gone wrong. Actually, God himself is convicting in these things.
Sarah: Yeah, I think it's really, really freeing that, isn't it? And I think in light of the kind of, again, the kind of narrative we've been seeing, and we just saw last time with Jen, the kind of reality of testifying, testifying to the gospel is going to bring persecution and it's going to bring hard stuff. And actually, that's okay when we realize that the Spirit is wholly with us and He is at work in the world doing the work of convicting. We can be faithful, but we cannot control how people respond. And that is a really freeing thing, I think, isn't it, as we press on in the Christian life. Let's just briefly come on to, the Spirit's role for the Apostles, though, from verse 12, because what kind of things are we seeing in these last few verses here?
Felicity: And here we have this very direct, he the Spirit will guide you into all truth. And so what we have here is that these apostles, the disciples here are being given all the truth that is needed. So the Spirit convicts the world according to sin, righteousness and judgment. The Spirit gives these apostles therefore the words that these apostles say and speak to the world which we see in the rest of the Bible really is all that we need, all that Jesus intended to give them. By the Spirit, he is bringing that into the light. And so there's a sufficiency there. This is actually what we need. Just that we can trust that God is at work as the Spirit convicts, so we can trust that God is at work as the Spirit gives all that is needed, the truth that is needed. The Spirit, in fact, is at work through the words of the apostles in light of this.
Sarah: Yes, what we have here is completely sufficient. What we have in the Bible is what we need and that has been the Spirit's work through the Apostles to give us all that we need for life and godliness and it all comes from the Father. It doesn't bypass the Father, it doesn't bypass Jesus in anyway, it is wholly bound up in the work of the Father and the Son the Spirit all together and that's just again really really helpful isn't it? I think it brings assurance with what we're reading, it brings comfort and think just that and the grace that the Lord would work in this way that this is how he chooses to work so that we don't have to think if only Jesus was here because no we have the Spirit and we have the Word we have everything that we need.
Felicity: And there's an authority to that, there? Because I think all the way through these chapters, we've been hearing Jesus really affirm his authority from the Father, you know, I'm in him, he's in me, I'm doing the work of God, this is the glory of God, all of these things. And as we hear of the Advocate, the Spirit being given and therefore bringing the Word that the Apostles need, everything that is needed, so we can absolutely be sure that this is the authority of God contained in this Word. And the assurance of that is huge because as we've just read in the previous few verses, there is persecution and trouble that comes through proclaiming Christ. There is trouble that comes through being counter-cultural, counter the way of the world by following Jesus, by holding out this word. So we need to be all the more convinced that this word is the authoritative, spirit-given word of God. And that's what we stand on, that's what we hold to. And I find that so freeing because I said, it's okay, it's okay. I don't have to like conjure up some better word, some better idea. This is exactly what God has given us. And it's a good and a gracious and a needed thing. That's really good.
Sarah: Yeah, and it makes me want to sit in it all the more because I want to be in line with this word. I want to be walking, walking with it and being guided more and more by this word because I have confidence in it and that confidence has been bolstered through this and I think that's again just has been a real gift, hasn't it, to kind of see that afresh. And it's a real gift, and, when I'm meeting up with my unbelieving friend and we're reading John's Gospel together, and actually, I can trust the Spirit to be at work there. And I'm really thankful. Again, it gives me confidence to go in, and he knows what he's doing. He knows. I open the Word, and we just see what happens, and yeah, it's been really good. Yeah.
Felicity: Yeah, and we pray, yeah, it's good, isn't it? And we pray, and we pray that God does that. Let's pray. Sarah, why don't you pray for us as we respond to these verses?
Sarah: Our Father, we just thank you so much that we have everything that we need. We thank you so much that you give us your spirit. We thank you so much that we have this authoritative word inspired by your spirit that we've been given all that we need. Lord, we thank you that over these chapters, you really are equipping us and helping us to see that you give us what we need to live the Christian life. And so we just pray, please, would you help us to go from here confident in you, in your work in the world, in your work this word and we really do pray please keep bolstering our faith that we would stand firm until the end. Amen
Felicity: Amen. Well, we're so grateful to be in these verses together, aren't we, Sarah? I hope that you're all enjoying listening along as well. Did you know that over half of our funding for this podcast comes from you, our listeners? And we're so thankful for your partnership with us through that, whether it's by one-off gifts or monthly donations. And if you'd like to know more about how to support us, do go to twosistersandacupoftea.com/partner. We'd love to partner with you in that way. But we will look forward to seeing you being in your earbuds next Friday for the next instalment of John's Gospel. Goodbye.
Sarah: See you then.
Felicity: This episode is sponsored by 10ofthose.com.
Listener testimonial: Hi, I'm Jen and I listen to two sisters and a cup of tea all the way from Wellington in New Zealand. We moved here to serve God 18 years ago, so listening to Two Sisters and a cup of tea encourages me by helping me to know that although we live in a big wide world, we can be united by our love of God and His Word. Listening to Felicity and Sarah brings the Bible to me in a way that makes me feel like I'm sitting with close family and friends.
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