Episode 9: John 16:16-33: Glorious Presence (Part 2)
As we close out John 16, we're continuing to reflect on the work of the Spirit, guided primarily by what we're reading in this part of John's gospel.
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How does this passage grow your understanding of joy?
How do these verses help you to rejoice in God as Father?
What does it look like to go from these verses, confident on all Christ has achieved for you on the cross?
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The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Sarah: You're listening to the Two Sisters in a Cup of Tea podcast, the Bible study podcast for everyday life. We're here for a 20 minute burst of Bible chats over a cup of tea and an English style biscuit as we make our way through a Bible book over the course of the season and drive it to our hearts. And this season we're in John's gospel, getting stuck into chapters 12 through 17 together. Whether you've been listening for a while or have just found us, we're so pleased you're here.
Felicity: This season, we've been so grateful to be partnering with 10ofthose.com. I've recently been walking through a season of grief, and I imagine that there are many of you listening for whom grief is real. There's no shortcut on this long, hard journey, but I have come across some great books that have helped me along the way. Beyond the Darkness by Clarissa Mole is a powerful, honest, and helpful read, as the author reflects on her own grief at the loss of her husband in his early 40s and what she has learnt. I really loved the way she spoke of grief being a constant companion, but that the road is wide enough for Jesus to be her other companion. Alongside that, I've also enjoyed Heaven by Paul Mallard, in which he captures the heart of Biblical truth of our heavenly hope. And then there's the classic Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis. All of these books are well worth your time. Grab all of these titles from 10ofthose.com.
Sarah: Welcome to Two Sisters and a Cup of Tea. I'm Sarah, I'm here as ever with my sister Felicity. We're either side of the Atlantic and we're looking forward to getting into the second half of chapter 16 today, 16 versus 16 to 33. Before we get there, Felicity, have recently, or not recently actually, a little while ago, you crossed from this side to the other side of the Atlantic and tell us about your tea journey on that.
Felicity: Yeah, well, you know, I don't know if any of you have been on transatlantic flights. In fact, any kind of long haul flight, they tend to offer hot drinks at some point towards the end of the journey. And a cup of tea is always on offer. And to be honest, it's a rule of thumb of mine that I say no, because I just think it's not going to be a good cup of tea. Long life milk involved.
Sarah: Say no and also plastic cup situation all the things
Felicity: Plastic cup. Never sure what they really mean by tea, you know, is it is it a good?
Sarah: Do think if you bought your own china mug they would fill it?
Felicity: I think they probably would. You might. Would it make it through security? But on this fly, was with a different airline to normal and I thought, you know what, the person offering me the cup of tea, they've got an English accent. I think, I don't know whether that should really influence it at all, but I thought I'm just going to say yes. I'm going to say yes to the cup of tea. And the fact I'm still talking about it now, it was a really good cup of tea. It was a surprising cup of tea and I was glad I said yes. And it's just made me think, I wonder if I should say yes next time as well, but I worry that now my standards have been set quite high.
Sarah: Well, yeah, setting myself up for disappointment. And also, was it the moment that you just like, you're just gasping for a drink so you actually anything would have done the trick anyway as well? All the things.
Felicity: It's true. It's true. It was the right time of day, you know, all the categories were being... And even my son sat next to me was like, as I said, yes, he's like, are you sure you never say yes to that? Such a creature of habit. Well, aside from tea, Sarah, you and I have been talking a little bit about this idea that when we're in the Bible, that the more we're in it, the more we study, it kind of leaves us wanting more, like that kind of idea that as we go to the Bible, it's not that we then shut it and we're like, okay, well, we've done that, not least with these chapters of John's Gospel. What's been your experience of that kind of feeling?
Sarah: I think probably reflecting on our kind of five years of podcasting, the thing that has really struck me all the way through actually is that hunger begets hunger. I think we started five years ago hungry for the word in a lockdown kind of chaos situation. Five years on, I am more hungry. You are more hungry for the word than we've ever been. But that's not because this has been a failure. Quite the opposite. The more that we've kind of dug deep into scripture, the more that we are knowing Jesus and wanting to know him more. And I think we've been talking about this just in relation to how we teach the Bible when we give talks, how we lead studies, wanting people to want to go away and dig deeper for themselves, not kind of shutting the book and going, right, that's it, I've done that, I've squashed that and no more to kind of investigate kind of thing. But actually the opposite, isn't it?
Felicity: Yeah, I think that's, and I really notice actually the Bible teachers, when I listen to a Bible teacher who makes me feel that, like I want to go away and dig into my Bible more, I'm so grateful because I know that God's working through his word. So I want that to be the case that I want to pick up my Bible more and I want, yeah, I guess we pray that for our listeners as well, don't we, that as off the back of these conversations that people would want to dig in. Talking of digging in, shall I read these verses for us? So we're at chapter 16, verse 16 through to the end of the chapter.
Jesus went on to say, in a little while you will see me no more and then after a little while you will see me. At this some of his disciples said to one another, what does he mean by saying in a little while you'll see me no more and then after a little while you will see me and because I'm going to the Father? They kept asking what does he mean by a little while? We don't understand what he is saying. Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this so he said to them,are you asking one another what I meant when I said, in a little while you'll see me no more and then after a little while you will see me? Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve but your grief will turn to joy. A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come, but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. So with you, now is your time of grief but I will see you again and you will rejoice and no one will take away your joy. In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you've not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive and your joy will be complete. Though I've been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language, but will tell you plainly about my father. In that day you will ask in my name. I'm not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world. Now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. Then Jesus, a disciple said, now you're speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God. Do you now believe? Jesus replied. The time is coming and in fact has come when you'll be scattered each to your own home. You'll leave me all alone, yet I'm not alone for my father is with me. I've told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In this world you'll have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world.
Sarah: Thank you, Felicity. It's so I just find it so funny, this kind of bookend with the disciples, that we've got the beginning of this passage that I just don't know what's going on. They're saying, I still don't understand.
Felicity: Even as I was reading that and like I've read it a number of times even as I reading it was like wow there's just a lot of going back and forth here in a little world what does he mean a little world there's just so much confusion
Sarah: Yeah, they kept asking what does he mean what you don't understand which I think is just really heartening because of course we are the same of course we go through so much the word going I don't really understand what's going on here and and then at the end I love this at the end yes now we understand and now we've got it and you're like Jesus is like you haven't have you
Felicity: I love the confidence in it yeah yeah Jesus spoken I can imagine me doing that like like Jesus has said it so I should probably just you know yes run with it I think I do understand exactly the reality is yeah we've got a way to go and he's been saying that all the way through
Sarah: Yeah, but in the middle, Yeah, yeah, doesn't it? In the middle of that sandwich of the disciples, not understanding, then understanding or kind of understanding, whatever it is, we've got these really profound words from Jesus talking about, well, there's a lot of mention of weeping and mourning and grief, and there's a lot of mention of joy, isn't there? And I think what struck me is as kind of coming to this again, was the fact that this is really topsy-turvy version of what life looks like. So we expect in the world now to have joy now and grieve later at death. That is the natural order of things, isn't it? And yet this has been totally turned on its head because he says, will weep and mourn while the world rejoices and then your grief will turn to joy. And just that his death and resurrection completely turn on its head those emotions.
Felicity: Yeah, and which is right, isn't it, that therefore the disciples are pretty confused. And kind of sad because you've got this Messiah, they've been persuaded all the way through, they've been with him for a length of time to see his works, to trust that he is who he says he is. And this Messiah, the Saviour, the King, God's King, is gonna go away and be resurrected and then ascend to heaven. And it is a different category to anything that they would encounter elsewhere and so I think it therefore is right that Jesus explains it. Yeah we need explanation that this is how it's gonna be and the grief is real. I love that that he acknowledges that and that this very truly in verse 20 you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. It's not that you're supposed to stoically just it's okay I know what's coming it's okay I trust that the God's got it in control. No, no, grief and weeping and mourning is a real thing. There is suffering in his absence.
Sarah: Yes, and I appreciate the kind of the picture of a woman giving birth in a sense that there's a process in how it's going to turn from grief to joy. It's not an immediate click your fingers and that happens, is it? Like there's a process that goes on here. But it will, your time of grief will turn to joy and once you have that joy no one can take it away from you in verse 22. That is quite astounding, isn't it? This joy is so deep-seated, it is so forever ingrained because our joy is in Christ and our joy is ultimately in heaven. And we're touching on this last year, weren't we? The fruit of the spirit of joy, that it is not circumstantial because our joy is wholly linked to being in Christ and all that he brings for us.
Felicity: Well, I was just saying, just to clarify that the joy and this, in that day, you will no longer ask me, like, this is after the resurrection. They're seeing him again at the resurrection, the joy that is coming through. It's not that we have to wait for the joy until we get to heaven.
Sarah: No, no, no, no, no, no, we can have that joy now. Yeah. But the joy is also so much bigger because the joy ultimately is in the Father. So Jesus is kind of saying here that actually, I'm just the kind of stream for you to enjoy the Father. That's what's going on.
Felicity: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's really struck me in just the intimacy that is being given with the Father. Ask and you will receive and your joy will be complete. And he says, it's not that I will ask in verse 26. I'm not saying I'll ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have never believed that I came. Ask the Father yourself. Wow. That is…
Sarah: Yeah, it's so huge, isn't it? It's so big.
Felicity: It's huge, especially just if you think of the weight of the Old Testament as what scripture has said about the relationship with God before this moment. There's so many formalities, there's so many sacrifices, so many temple kind of things. And here we have, you can ask the Father. And these are not perfect people we've just seen, they're really confused still.
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I love that. I love this quote from John Owen that Sinclair Ferguson refers to it says this, Christ in respect of the love of the Father is but the beam, the stream wherein though actually all our lights, our refreshment lies, yet by him we are led to that fountain, the son of eternal love itself. This is that which Christ came to reveal God as a father. And just, that, that our joy of being able to know God as Father and all that is accomplished through Christ's death and resurrection for that to happen. It's really, it's really, really good just to dwell on that, isn't it?
Felicity: Yeah, and I think that in that we just get a clearer picture that God is about more than just whether we make it to heaven. Like it's not just a kind of transactional salvation. This is relational realities of being in Christ and the relational aspect of that.
Sarah: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and we're going to see that as we get into the prayer next week, aren't we? kind of eternal life is about knowing God, that kind of intimacy of knowing and being known. But yeah, I think it is a kind of sobering end as well, isn't it? So as we reach the end of this passage, we're reaching the end of what Jesus has to say. He will then go on to pray next time. And it is sobering thing that actually he knows that the disciples are going to scatter. He knows that in the face of all that he's told them, he's prepared them, he's been so tender and gracious in the way that he's kind of led them through what he's needed to say and how he's answered their questions and how he's been equipping them for what's gonna happen in the coming hours and days and weeks and months and years. And yet, it is a sobering thing when he says, will all leave me alone.
Felicity: It's really, yeah. I hadn't thought about that, just the poignancy of that in the aftermath of what he's just said and all the way through he's been saying to them, not be troubled. He's pastorally giving them all that they need, isn't he? I've told you these things so that in me you may have peace. Although in this world you will have trouble, yeah. But at the ending, take heart, I have overcome the world and I think what he's doing there is giving us the big picture. Through the death and the resurrection of Jesus, the prince of the world, the devil, has no footholds. He has won. Jesus wins and therefore the assurance and the trustworthiness and the certainty this is the glory of God in the person and work of Jesus Christ because he has overcome the world and I love that ending assurance there.
Sarah: So good. Yeah. And particularly as we've seen all the way through, this kind of affirms what we've seen all the way through because even back as far back as the foot washing, we saw that Jesus was in complete control, that all power had been given to him. He knew the devil was prompting Judas. He knew what was going on, that kind of climactic moment. And yet he was in control the whole time. And again, as you were saying, we were just chatting before about this in chapter 14 and verse 30 and the prince of this world is coming he has no hold over me and just the whole way through as he's been talking about all these things Jesus is utterly in control of what is about to happen he's so sure of his victory and I think again that's just so so deeply encouraging, isn't it, as we kind of head through to what’s going to look the most excruciating thing for the son of man to be crucified, just to consider the fact that, yeah, all the way through he knows.
Felicity: Yeah, yeah, he knows, he knows. And just thinking about how this plays out in our everyday lives, all these profound realities that Jesus is telling us, the one thing that struck me probably the most is this relational aspect and what it means to really have that level of familiarity, that intimacy with God the Father and I think to enjoy that and to rejoice in that and to press into that, what does it mean in my every day, on my Monday morning, on my Wednesday evening to enjoy knowing God? And I think you know, it comes back to abiding, isn't it? Remaining in, coming back to the word, spending time in the word, in prayer. In some ways it's the fundamentals, the basics of being a Christian, but when it's put into this context, like, why wouldn't I want to hear from him, speak to him, walk with him, bear the fruit of being in him? I don't know, what's, have you got any reflections on what that looks like?
Sarah: Yeah, yeah I think building on that, I think what these chapters have done for me is they've kind of opened my eyes to how much I am appreciating all that has been bought for me. because of Jesus's death. Does that make sense? So just kind of building on the picture of the Spirit and all that he gives us, building the picture of what it is to know God as Father and what it is to have this word, that all of this is given to us because Jesus resolutely set his face to the cross. And I think, as you say, the capacity to enjoy this more and to enjoy God more because of all that's been laid out for us in these chapters, because of all that we've seen in his costly sacrifice. And he's not even got there yet, but he's just been talking and preparing us and helping us to see how it's all being made possible. And I think that I think like anything in life, you see the behind the scenes, when you see the process to make something possible and you know it's cost a lot and you know it's a big deal, then it makes you appreciate it all the more, doesn't it?
Felicity: Yeah that's so true and so it's kind of putting flesh on the bones isn't it of what it is to be someone who is in Christ bought by him, following him. I think even as we catch a glimpse of the glory of God in all of this it opens our eyes all the more to that and what the glorious life is that this to live in relationship with God the Father through the work of the Son, by the experience of the spirit is glorious, is desirable, why wouldn't I pursue that above all else and yeah.
Sarah: Yes. And why wouldn't I then also run that way and seek to live a life that images Jesus in that? Because he's told me that that is the path to blessing and joy and I want that and yeah. But it's a praying, continually praying isn't it, for that work to happen in my heart that I would keep believing that and keep believing what he says about it. Would you pray for us Felicity as we close?
Felicity: Yeah, love to. Heavenly Father, we love all the realities that have been described in these verses. We praise you for the work of Christ. We praise you for the gift of knowing you as Father. We praise you for that joy that is described here. Lord, would you help us to dwell on Jesus more and more. Would our gaze rest on him? Would we behold him? Would we pursue him? Trusting that this is the blessed, the glorious life. Lord, please, would you thrill our hearts with this that we be those who run this way? Please, yeah, cause us to get rid of anything that's distracting that's stopping us from doing that. That we'd be those who are in pursuit of Christ, enjoying real intimate relationship with you. And we pray this in your name. Amen.
Sarah: Amen. Well that kind of passage concludes Jesus's words to the disciples in this room, doesn't it? Next time we're going to be getting on to his words to the Father as he turns to pray and I'm really looking forward to getting into that with you, Felicity. Before that we just want to say thank you to everyone who filled out our birthday survey. It is so incredibly helpful for us and we really appreciate everyone who took the time. So thank you so, so much. We look forward to seeing you next Friday as we get into chapter 17 together. We'll see you then.
Felicity: see you then, bye bye. This episode was sponsored by 10ofThose.com
Listener testimonial: I'm Katie from North Yorkshire in England. I listened to the Two Sisters in a Cup of Tea podcast on my commute to work, with a strong cup of Yorkshire tea. I've really enjoyed listening to Felicity and Sarah dig into the Bible. They've helped me get some focus to my personal Bible studies, and we've also been able to use the podcast as a springboard to some small group Bible studies with the women in our church. Thank you for all you do.
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